Curse

upier · May 08, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

I'd just hate to see the GWAMM title, which is nearly in my reach (only that forsaken Kurzick title to max...) gets bumped to 35 or 40 maxed titles, with only a few nice Titles added (quest title and such) and the rest consisting of pure grind.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.
What I support is adding a huge pool of titles (a number such as 100 titles does not bother me!) while still keeping the number required for God at 30.
That way the players are able to go after God, but do it in their own way. Because currently it's limited to just - do this and this and this and this and this and this and this and THEN you can choose if you want to do this or that.
Like I said - I feel this would breathe some new air into the game, because it would allow to reach a wide audience of tastes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinguinius

If you want to do something, do it. You don't need a little bar to tell you that you've done it. Let's not waste dev time with useless things.

That's the thing.
I am. I have two accounts and if I am not mistaken I have over 6k hours of playtime among them.
My ritualist was (is - depending on how long my para-love lasts) my main character and he has 3 max titles.
At the end of the day - I am not going to be running around doing things I don't like.
Still, rewards are good. Even if it's just a crappy title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

Let me put it this way:
1. we dont need more grind.
2. why should you get to max gwamm by doing fun titles. i.e. I had to max all those shitty boring grind titles; therfore so should you!

I wish YOU didn't have to do things YOU don't like. If God was your goal - I wish you'd be able to obtain it by doing things you consider fun. It's a game after all.
Hopefully someone would say the same thing for me.
(And yeah, I am not always this nice. If you gaining something would mean that I couldn't get it - I'd throw one hell of a hissy fit!

)

Longasc · May 08, 2009, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Achievement systems are the hype recently.

And they have gone out of control. The execution is flawed. Note that this is a general criticism of the achievement systems in various games, not only GW.

People go for an achievement if the tiniest kind of "reward" is associated with it. Regardless what kind of strange stuff they are expected to do. Case in point: Legendary Defender of Ascalon.

Add in Meta-Achievements like the KOABD title track or the Purple or what was it 310% speed mount in WoW and associate skill power with certain title tracks, and the achievement ideas that mostly evolve around doing things is a mostly silly and dumb way (basically, the new WoW bonus achievements: Make easy fights harder by doing them in the most artificial and dumbest way imaginable) and you created something really odd.

It shapes player behaviour and mindset in a certain way.
It extends the lifespan of a game by giving them "something to do", but does not necessarily add more fun. In fact it can even burn out completionists.

Some examples. The LOTRO titles e.g.: THE BELOVED - get kissed or hugged 1000 times or so, but it counts only 3 times in 24 hours.
So people log in and hug someone close to them, who hugs back as a courtesy.

Guild Wars is already a quite single-player focused game with heroes and henchies, and I do not mean that negatively right now. Do we really need achievements that basically tell people "Run out of Boreal station several thousand times and open treasure chests"?

We do not need to do it, it is optional, is the usual reply. True. But think about the carrot. People go for even the smallest imaginable "reward". We do not even know what we get for this or that monument in GW2, but people work on it.

I do not think that people who "work" on the more grindy and repetitive titles are really contributing to some kind of community or basically exist at all. They could as well be logged off and offline, play single player.

The positive aspect of achievement systems is if they make people cooperate. While I am not too happy about the WoW achievement system, it has more diverse objectives and not endless repetition. I really liked the mass raids on Horde/Alliance cities for the warbear achievement.

Then there is also the question if we really want some Zaishen dude (not really achievement related, but something similar) or NPC or title track sheet tell us what we have to do. I hate such "to-do" lists, and favor a more open ended sandbox style. OK, the term sandbox is overused.

I am not absolutely against titles and achievements. They can also be very nice and serve as pointer for the community "what to do", like the Zaishen Quests.

But just adding one more buy-grind-crap-title? Not really.

Related:
http://www.brokentoys.org/2009/05/02...-achievements/
http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=1052

pinguinius · May 08, 2009, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Achievement systems are the hype recently...

Titles/achievements are a cheap way for developers to add content without adding any content. A lot of the achievements in WoW are just "do the dungeon again, but try harder," which is not really any more fun than doing it the first time, or holiday achievements to get people to keep their accounts open with promises of e-rewards of dubious usefulness.

They work though, as there is evidently a large segment of the population who want to play every RPG to 105% completion. Being online and being able to show others what you've done is only more enticement for those inclined to do so.

Me, I just log on and do whatever makes me happy for a few hours.

Longasc · May 08, 2009, 07:25 AM // 07:25

What often turns me off is that players get seduced to FARM like mad during holiday events by the title and achievement crap.

Nobody cares about any celebration ... if fun things can be done like... farming for bday cupcakes, or standing AFK for 72+ hours in a circle...

keke

and yeah, pinguinus, titles/achievements are rather poor content extenders. They stretch content without adding anything new.

Chorus · May 08, 2009, 07:57 AM // 07:57

I see a lot of Guild Wars players assume that their definition of fun is the only valid one. They don't enjoy title-hunting, therefore title-hunting can't be enjoyable for anyone, ever. And if you think it is fun, well, you're just plain wrong.

All of which is rubbish. While I'm sure that there are people out there who don't actually like the process of title-hunting, but put themselves through it anyway, many people actually do find it fun, and I'm afraid their fun is no less valid than yours. As far as I'm concerned, they can remove the ability to display titles and make them visible to the player only, and I'll still go for the ones I'm going for now, and ignore the ones I'm ignoring now (Wisdom) because they don't fit my definition of fun. I'd do precisely the same if Guild Wars were a single-player game. If you don't like the existence of particular titles, or of titles at all, exercise that right to ignore they exist. It doesn't mean they shouldn't.

I'd be all in favour of the OP's suggestion of seeing more titles added. If they provide title-hunters with a bit more enjoyment without damaging the fun of those who don't want them (except that odd minority who take offence at the existence of anything they aren't interested in getting), why not? It won't lessen the respect given to GWAMM. That respect doesn't exist (I find the notion of respect for a title a little silly myself anyway; respect is something you gain in the workplace, not in front of a computer pretending to be a necromancer). Regardless of the title you have, it's a given that the majority of the Guild Wars populace doesn't respect it and probably doesn't even look at it. Most people are only interested in the achievements of themselves and their friends, not of strangers, and as has already been commented, they're more or less all buyable anyway.

I'd enjoy seeing some new maxable titles myself. The non-maxable ones don't often interest me (but I don't mind them existing), as there's a limited amount of time in which I'm interested in doing the same thing.

Arduin · May 08, 2009, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.
What I support is adding a huge pool of titles (a number such as 100 titles does not bother me!) while still keeping the number required for God at 30.
That way the players are able to go after God, but do it in their own way. Because currently it's limited to just - do this and this and this and this and this and this and this and THEN you can choose if you want to do this or that.
Like I said - I feel this would breathe some new air into the game, because it would allow to reach a wide audience of tastes.

Okay. I don't mind GWAMM getting 'downgraded' like people are saying, as long as I'm still able to get to 30 titles.

More titles would be nice, but again, what actions could possible be turned into a title?

upier · May 08, 2009, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

More titles would be nice, but again, what actions could possible be turned into a title?

As previously mentioned:
quests, animal collector, stupid things like "party kills 10k foes", a survivor replacement for old guys like "achieve 1 mil xp without dying", more role-playing titles like "Luxon Spy" where the game counts the number of times a guy that is in a Luxon guild redeems Kurzick rewards, "Naughty Librarian" for a guy (or a girl

) that turns in all books, a title for the a specific number of times you win Aspy/JQ (which could be two differently named titles - one for the Luxons and one for kurzicks) ... just a bit more really dumb titles.
These titles could only count towards God, but not towards the Favor count to not screw that up also (/rolleyes).

Scary · May 08, 2009, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinguinius

Titles/achievements are a cheap way for developers to add content without adding any content.
They work though, as there is evidently a large segment of the population who want to play every RPG to 105% completion. Being online and being able to show others what you've done is only more enticement for those inclined to do so.

Me, I just log on and do whatever makes me happy for a few hours.

couldn't agree more.

Men give us more REAL content ...but pls no more titles

pinguinius · May 08, 2009, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chorus

I see a lot of Guild Wars players assume that their definition of fun is the only valid one. They don't enjoy title-hunting, therefore title-hunting can't be enjoyable for anyone, ever. And if you think it is fun, well, you're just plain wrong.

Titles themselves are only fun if you suffer from OCD. I recently finished vanquishing Elona, and I was very happy when I finished, not because of the text below my name or the bar being filled up, but because I set a personal goal and spent many hours achieving it. I had fun vanquishing all the areas with H/H and no consumables, which was the personal objective I had. The resultant title was secondary to that.

No one can sanely argue that titles are more fun than or a substitute for new content; that would be like saying you would rather stay at home than go on vacation because your house is better than a hotel.

Titles are fine for keeping track of your achievements, but when you get people sitting in GToB buying sweets all day so they can set up their clicking program, go to sleep, and wake up with a new title, that's not fun, that's a compulsion.

Kronos Ledaloth · May 08, 2009, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Do you like easy achievements? Me not.
I saw too many gods in game...isn't enought?

Jair · May 08, 2009, 09:12 AM // 09:12

I'd like to see a Quest-title, but that's about it, really. I'd rather have them spend their time on something else.

Chorus · May 08, 2009, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinguinius

Titles themselves are only fun if you suffer from OCD. I recently finished vanquishing Elona, and I was very happy when I finished, not because of the text below my name or the bar being filled up, but because I set a personal goal and spent many hours achieving it. I had fun vanquishing all the areas with H/H and no consumables, which was the personal objective I had. The resultant title was secondary to that.

No one can sanely argue that titles are more fun than or a substitute for new content; that would be like saying you would rather stay at home than go on vacation because your house is better than a hotel.

Titles are fine for keeping track of your achievements, but when you get people sitting in GToB buying sweets all day so they can set up their clicking program, go to sleep, and wake up with a new title, that's not fun, that's a compulsion.

Sorry, but I'm just seeing another "my definition of fun is the only valid one" argument here, and it doesn't really seem to hold any more water than any such arguments that've been made before it. YOU had fun vanquishing Elona but YOU didn't find the title itself to be the incentive. YOU wouldn't find it fun to sit there clicking on sweets all day. That's cool, but "you" is the important part of each of those sentences. After all, who are you to attempt to objectively define what's fun for people who are not you?

For instance, I quite like the consumables titles, because very often when we're done with the zquests for the day, a couple of friends and I will hang out, use up our mysterious/cottontail tonics, and chat while we watch TV and enjoy the very trippy experience of a drunk rainbow phoenix chasing a pair of sugar rushed bunnies through the guild hall. That's not fun? No, sorry, you only get to decide that for you, not for me or anyone else.

aapo · May 08, 2009, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Here's my take on what should be done with titles:

1. Fix PvE. What I mean by this is removing all of the shit that's made it super easy ([[Shadow Form], [[Save Yourselves], 600/Smite, etc.). The reason that this needs to be eliminated is because it highly has devalued the meaning of what I would think should be the most prestigious of single title tracks in PvE, such as Master of the North, or Vanquisher.

- Have you ever considered that perhaps the skill needed is not merely of being able to complete certain area. The game would be a failure if majority wouldn't be able to complete some areas. Tank & spank holy trinity is crappy build by today's standards, but it still works even if it's slow. Whole point of the excessive grind tracks is to find the most effective way to complete them, aka. speed-clear of permasins, arcane-RoJs and consumables. Yet even when you know the build, some teams fail, because they don't work together. Speed is skill.

Titles naturally devalue over time as anyone can get them by investing enough time. Same thing goes for every newly released items and their farmers.

pinguinius · May 08, 2009, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chorus

For instance, I quite like the consumables titles, because very often when we're done with the zquests for the day, a couple of friends and I will hang out, use up our mysterious/cottontail tonics, and chat while we watch TV and enjoy the very trippy experience of a drunk rainbow phoenix chasing a pair of sugar rushed bunnies through the guild hall. That's not fun? No, sorry, you only get to decide that for you, not for me or anyone else.

I'm pretty sure there was alcohol before the titles (if only hunter's ale). The title isn't what's giving you enjoyment, it's the items. I use whatever party stuff I get, too. You're confusing the fun that you get by doing the things associated with he title and the title itself.

My monk has done every quest in Cantha, except for the ones only available to native Canthans. If they added a quest title, it wouldn't make that any more fun, it would just expand the hero panel another few pixels. Titles are not content. They're interesting, sure. I'm glad they're there, but wasting time adding more titles instead of a skill balance (new skill dynamics means new builds, which is likely the most new content we'll see until GW2) or other new content is not a good investment of resources.

aapo · May 08, 2009, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Add in Meta-Achievements like the KOABD title track or the Purple or what was it 310% speed mount in WoW and associate skill power with certain title tracks, and the achievement ideas that mostly evolve around doing things is a mostly silly and dumb way (basically, the new WoW bonus achievements: Make easy fights harder by doing them in the most artificial and dumbest way imaginable) and you created something really odd.

- Isn't this what playing is in purest form? Having fun and trying new stuff. I never thought that organized sports were that much fun. The problem is that games these days are starting to resemble work. All these timed events, community-made rules, external rewards. Drinking virtual beer and pretending you're drunkard might be fun for someone, but when you add title to stand there clocking 10,000 minutes worth of button pressing you kill the whole concept of fun. It's even less fun if you're forced to do so to get title you won't be displaying, but as prerequisite for some other title.

persuadu · May 08, 2009, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rak Orgon of Beowulf

GWAMM isn't much anyway. PvE titles are easy/buyable. Hero and Champion are about the only titles that are worth the prestige they show.

Yah, cuz you cant BUY Hero or Champ points huh? Do you read these forums? You can buy those too, so lets not just be some arrogant "PvP r better than PvE folk"

isildorbiafra · May 08, 2009, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Add more titles and they may aswell add a 6th teir and call it " Mere Mortal Walking Amongst Gods."

There are enough titles as it is. You dont like the money sink ones? Than i suggest you try and max the PVP ones. Alliance titles nowadys require 1/2 the effort to max! Do one or both of those.

Maxing GWAMM should remain as it was always intended to be. Hard to get. Eighter by being skillfull or by investing lots of time.

/not signed!

Longasc · May 08, 2009, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Chorus, why do we need a title track for nearly everything possible?

Can't we do what is fun for us without having someone create a title track for this or that?

This is also the problem with the "my fun is not your fun" notion and different player opinions what is fun to them.

It is perfectly fine - but then add title tracks and a carrot.
It shapes player behaviour and mentality enormously.

I have seen people hunting for various titles even if it is *not* fun for them.
(edit: just read Scott Jenning's blog about WoW PvE players waiting for a flag to drop in various battlegrounds just to get an achievement required for a meta-achievement)
Heck, I thought about ways of getting GWAMM without having to do too much crap and spending too much time for it regularly, too. I recently had the notion that the Zaishen quests provide tons of Kurzick/Luxon Faction, and then 29 would turn into 30 titles. Not that I would get anything for it, but I still would like it...

Maybe pinguinus is right about the obsessive–compulsive disorder.

Still, even without OCD taken in account, I see many friends playing the game almost as slaves of the Zaishen and/or their title track process. Always looking for doing this or that just to complete the title tracks. Very high percentage of OCD there? Maybe not OCD, but something similar.

aapo already mentioned it, games start to resemble "work" and set this "work" as some ultimate final objective in the game.

Drunkard was indeed much more funny when people were drunk and NOT compulsory drinking EVERY minute they do a mission, post-processing turned out. Or idling in guild hall or zoning in and out to accelerate the drunkard point gain.

Someone please dare to say this is their idea of fun? I call it fostering bad player habits.

O Nuxtofulakas · May 08, 2009, 07:47 PM // 19:47

There are too many titles already.
Just make rank6 (GWAMM) = 35titles // or add +5 to all maxed titles ranks.

This is a win-win situation since:
1) keeps busy all those players that are title hunting oriented
2) doesn't demand anet resources

those who don't care about titles are not affected anyway...

Apollo Smile · May 08, 2009, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Achievements are all how you look at it. Getting titles in Guild Wars and WoW is just like collecting all the trophies in Smash Bros or unlocking achievements in on Xbox Live. They aren't exactly necessary, but fun to obtain at times. I want an achievement system to return in Guild Wars 2 but at a broader scale.